Goldkenshin wrote:Oh very good, i appreciate all that information. ..
Another thing i found was that some lillian rods are "sticky" even when brand new. sticky meaning the rod tip takes a bit of jiggling before it comes out of the second piece. ....
in regard to using the keiryu methods/designs for tenkara, i cant see why they would use lillians over the metal tip on tenkara rods, .....
i feel like we are trying to decipher ancient manuscript, haha. I guess i would have to go to japan and ask the shops why

Nani Nani!
You're welcome. I had fun searching for the info.
I think, but perhaps I am wrong, one reason the Lillian might be preferred over the metal tip is that it may weight less than the metal tip. Though both are very light. The reduced weight may reduce oscillation of the rod tip at the end of the forward cast. Which is perhaps more important for tenkara techniques. Maybe not so import on the longer rods, which are the ones that use the metal tips.
That being said, I found a Daiwa rod, that has a metal tip, but on the rod webpage they compare the lillian to the metal tip. (link is below). It was a bit hard to translate. But what I got from it was
the metal tip is more sensitive. The lillian tip less sensitive and prone to stretching.
It did not appear to say anything about the metal metakaraman tip being stronger or more reliable.
Some people prefer a wood or bamboo grip or maybe no grip material at all - over a cork or foam grip, because they say it is more sensitive to detecting a fish hit on the fly. Maybe it's somewhat the same idea. Do away with something that is soft and flexible and it's more sensitive. Do away with springs and shocks on your car, and it will be more sensitive to every bump in the road.
You might find this blog post interesting. (however, it is in Japanese). The blogger's name is Yuu. In this blog post he replaces the lillian. Because it was damaged. Some of the steps would be similar if you want to remove the lillian and replace it with a metal tip of some kind.
http://petauro.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/04/07/234224Generally I see two names for the rod tip. 竿穂先 (sao hosaki) or 竿先端 (sao sentan).
The normal or common lillian, as seen on Yuu's blog post will frequently be called a 普通リリアン (futsū Ririan). A good search term would be Normal Lillian Rod Tip, 普通リリアン・竿先端.
Some people prefer them over the type of a lillian that rotates, because they don't like the rattle sound it makes. They remove them and replace them with a normal lillian.
The type of lillian that rotates, sometimes called a no tangle or Rolling Top lillian.
Or called a Karaman Lillian. リリアンカラマン or からまんリリアン. I think Karaman is an abbreviated form of Karamanai, からまない = not tangled.
You might sometimes see this term 絡み糸. karami ito or garami ito . = yarn entanglement iow, tangled line.
(some times characters change their phonetic sound, in this cast k or g, due to something in the Japanese language called Rendaku, 連濁 = Sequential voicing or phonic change of unvoiced to voiced sound)
It can be confusing when trying to translate Japanese when you don't really speak the language. One word for Fishing is 釣り(tsuri). But add it to the end of Tenara for Tenkara Fishing , テンカラ釣り ( Tenkaradzuri) The Ts becomes Dz.
There are many types of metal tips in use. One I've seen is called a メタからマン / メタからまん (metakaraman) I think Meta is short for メタル (metaru) = metal , thus Metal Karaman. Or a metal no tangle rod tip. メタからまん・竿先端 .
Here is one example from Daiwa.
http://www.daiwaweb.com/jp/resources/fishing/item/rod/keiryu_rd/ryuha_metal/image/metakaraman.jpg
Used on the Daiwa 流覇 メタルチューン rod. Something like Supreme Flow Metal Tune rod. Which is a 5.99m or 6.97m rod.
Another type used on a Shimano rod it the 回転「超感」トップ ( Kaiten `chō-kan' toppu) Rotating Super Sensitive Top.
http://fishing.shimano.co.jp/product/rod/images/3869/free_02_img03.jpg
It is used on their リミテッドプロ RS HF[LIMITED PRO RS HF]rod, which is a 9 - 9.3 meter zoom rod.
Anyway, you can find many different kinds of metal tips. Some rotate or roll, some do not. It would take some effort to locate and order one that would fit you rods should you decide to try replacing the Lillian with one. But it could probably be done.
The Daiwa EP テクニカルチューン M・F (EP Technical Tune M F) rod is the one I found where they compare the lillian and metakarman tip. Under the heading of 感度アップ (kando appu) which translates as Sensitivity Up. My guess is it means Increased Sensitivity. In comparison to the lillian. It comes in 3 models. From 5.5m to 7m in length.
http://www.daiwaweb.com/jp/fishing/item/rod/keiryu_rd/ep_technicaltune_mf/More evidence that they only use a metal tip on the longer rods. I think there must be various reasons why Lillians are used on one type of rods, generally shorter models, and a metal tip or top of some type is used generally only on longer rods. Durability doesn't seem to be the reason. As you can see in the names chosen by both Daiwa and Shimano for different types of metal tips, they manage to include the name "sensitivity" in the name. With names like High Sensitivity or Super Sensitive. I think that must be the main reason . But why that is more important or more desirable on longer rods I do not know as I don't have one, and don't know anyone who fishes with one.
Top section not coming out.
I have one rod that I frequently had trouble getting the top or tip section to come out when I wanted to extend the rod.
It had a fairly thin lillian. And I had tied a figure 8 knot in the end of the lillian. But that knot was still small enough it would go inside the second section when the rod was collapsed. And I would have a difficult time getting it out.
Sometimes I had to remove the butt cap and blow into the second section to push it out. Later I had the idea to take a 6 inch piece of small diameter dacron line, tied the two ends together to make a loop. When I put the rod away I would make a girth hitch knot over the end of the lillian. Leave the end of the loop extending out of the end of the rod, and put the rod cap on. That worked well.
Then one day it dawned on me that I only use fluorocarbon level line with the rod. I really didn't need a knot in the end of the lillian. And I removed it. The lillian itself was small enough to not bind inside section 2. The knot had been small enough to go inside section 2, but big enough that it would bind inside. No knot resulted in No more problems getting the rod to extend. Maybe trying one of those two ideas will solve your problem getting your rod to extend.
If you track down and order a metal rod tip and replace the lillian on your tenkara rod with it. Post back with the results. Whether you like it better or find it created new unexpected problems.
D