[Goldkenshin]

hi, im relatively new to tenkara, maybe a year or 2. Every tenkara/keiryu/seiryu rod i have seen has a lillian. I feel there is an inherent design flaw in the tenkara rod. i feel this flaw is the connection from the carbon tip to the line you use. I have found the lillian eventually tears due to line cutting the lillian. Mono or Fluoro line is quite sharp(especially if you use level line size 2.5) and it tends to dig into the lillian during the line connection process and also when taking the line off the lillian.

Point being, somebody had to fix this. and i have been seeing new rods coming out with a metal connector, no lillian involved. it is called the Super Binkan Top, or Supersensitive top(binkan means little sensitive girl). this essentially gives a more direct connection to the rod tip(which increases sensitivity, due to removing the slack that is "lillian").

Although i think the best thing that comes from this is that you have a rod that NEVER needs to be serviced(unless you screw up and break something), there is no reel or lillian to be replaced/repaired, NOTHING, it LASTS FOREVER!

Unfortunately i can only find 2 rods that have this. and they are quite expensive, and they seem to only make them like that for keiryu rods 15ft+

i would like to see these put on tenkara rods too. The only downside i can see is if you break your tip, it will cost more to replace. the lillian system is cheaper, and still effective(but i have my quarrels with it).

SO in my opinion, IF you are the type of person who breaks rod tips. stick with lillians. IF you are the type who rarely, if ever breaks rod tips i suggest you look into this(there is very little information in the english internet world on this)

Rotating stainless steel Super Binkan Top

[dwalker]

... Every tenkara/keiryu/seiryu rod i have seen has a lillian. I feel there is an inherent design flaw in the tenkara rod......I have found the lillian eventually tears due to line cutting the lillian...

Point being, somebody had to fix this. and i have been seeing new rods coming out with a metal connector, no lillian involved. it is called the Super Binkan Top, or Supersensitive top...
....
Unfortunately i can only find 2 rods that have this. and they are quite expensive, and they seem to only make them like that for keiryu rods 15ft+

i would like to see these put on tenkara rods too. ....

It sounds like you have made a pretty good case for yourself that you really don't want a rod manufactured to be a Tenkara rod as presently made. And you would prefer to use a rod for Tenkara fishing techniques that was manufactured for another type of fishing. Or that you would prefer a Tenkara rod without a lillian but with this other type of tip.

Nothing wrong with that. Many people adapt Hae rods (ハエ竿) in particular, and other types of rods for Tenkara. You're just seeking a different kind of adaption I have not seen before.

The metal type tips on rods are not new. Many manufacturers have put them on their other rods: Keiryu, Seiryu, and Ayu rods for years.

The スーパー敏感トップ ( Super Sensitive Top) is just the proprietary name used by U-Nissin. Other rod companies that use them will use a different name. Shimano for example calls it the 回転「超感」トップ , Rotation Super Sensitive Top. Daiwa no doubt uses a different name. The 敏感トップ might be a product made by a third party company.

I really don't know why they use the metal tips for some types of rods and a lillian on other types of rods. I think these other methods of fishing may use smaller diameter line, really light thin line that needs color markers on the line to be able to see the line, which may, as you mentioned cut into a lillian. That being said over 5 years of fishing tenkara I have never had a lillian break, or wear out. It's a technology in use for a long time that has met the challenge and hasn't been abandoned.

This forum exist to promote Tenkara in a general limited way, and in particular Tenkara USA rods. Normally I wouldn't point you to other products. But in this case, if you are interested in replacing the lillian on a TenkaraUSA rod with the スーパー敏感トップ type of tip.

Then I and perhaps others might find it interesting to hear about your experience and how it works out for you.

So I am willing to point you toward some ways you might be able to find and order one and replace the lillian. I doubt if anyone at TUSA wants you to be unsatisfied with their product, and would prefer you find a way to adapt their product if they can't meet your requirements.

I don't know what the tip diameter is on the TUSA rods. I don't see it listed in the specs of the rods. You would have to get a micrometer to know what size you need. Also I don't know if the Super Sensitive Top rod tip will only work on hollow rod tips or only solid rod tips without breaking. Or if they can be used on both types of rod tips. A risk you will have to take, or research before trying it.

Chris Steward at Tenkarabum or Keiichi at TenkaraYa might be able / willing to order one for you. I am aware that some people are ordering things from Amazon Japan. Some have had no problems, but others did. However, with a quick look I could only find size 2.4mm.
Or maybe you can find some other way to order one. The prices run about $21, probably $30, or a little more to have them imported.

Here is a link to a webpage with a 1.0 mm Nissin tip. Generally U-Nissin sells their accessories and repair parts under the Nissin PALS label.
宇崎日新(UZAKI NISSIN) スーパー敏感トップ１．０ｍｍ
http://takamiya.jp/html/item/002/083/item210239.html

However, Uzaki-Nissin makes them for a large number of rod tip ( 竿穂先, sao hosaki) diameters (先 径 (mm).
From .7mm to 2.0mm. If the 1.0 mm size won't fit the TUSA tenkara rod you have. You can find the product code (商品コード) and Jan code (6 digit) number, JANコード(下6桁), in the Nissin eBook Catalog for other sizes. Page 98. Middle of the left side page. Click the magnification icon at the bottom to make the font size large enough to read the numbers. In their catalog they don't use 先 径 (mm) for tip diameter, the column is labeled サイズ (saizu) Size.

http://www.u-nissin.co.jp/ebook/index.html#page=99

For example I can see that : size , prod code , Jan Code are:
0.7mm, 1503303, 364025
0.8mm, 1503304, 364032
0.9mm, 1503305, 364049
1.2mm, 1503308, 364070

This website also has the 1.0 mm size, and there is a box at the top to click for overseas customers. Maybe worth a try.
宇崎日新(UZAKI NISSIN) スーパー敏感トップ１．０ｍｍ
http://store.shopping.yahoo.co.jp/point-i/4952260364056.html

Good luck. If you replace your lillian with a super sensitive top rod tip, let us know how it worked out.

Who knows. Maybe it will work out so well TUSA will want to offer it as an option,

I did notice one Keiryu rod that appeared to offer either a lillian tip or the metal tip. Though perhaps which tip was on the rod depended upon which sub model purchased. It was for the Nissin Ayu Rod, 鮎竿.

SILVER GIGA V2 EX[シルバーギガ V2イーエックス] , which is a $350 - $650 rod.

And if you search back through this forum, a member early on suggested they design a way to store the rod plug in the butt end of rod. Which was made a feature of the Rhodo and Sato rods a few years later.

David

[Goldkenshin]

Oh very good, i appreciate all that information. With my limited research skills i could only find 2 rods with this design nissin zerosum keiryu and suntech grayce NP. Everyone i have asked said they hadnt broke their lillian, i wonder if im doing something wrong, i follow the TUSA videos to a TEE, as well as other instructional videos. i figure the more you are snapping tippets off the tighter your level line will get and cut into your lillian. i also find when removing the level line from the lillian via the tag, it cuts into the lillian.

Another thing i found was that some lillian rods are "sticky" even when brand new. sticky meaning the rod tip takes a bit of jiggling before it comes out of the second piece. these metal tip rods seem to come out smooth every time. i just cant see a benefit of lillians over the solid rod tip except cost.

in regard to using the keiryu methods/designs for tenkara, i cant see why they would use lillians over the metal tip on tenkara rods, my 3-4.5 level line fits perfect on the metal tips. i cant see the connection between the metal tip rods and thin keiryu line rigs with markers. it works great with keiryu line, but it also works great for tenkara rigs too. i figure its one of those things like how they seem to only put cork on tenkara rods, and not keiryu or seiryu rods, doesnt really make sense(i personally prefer corkless grips, less space, less fuss).

i feel like we are trying to decipher ancient manuscript, haha. I guess i would have to go to japan and ask the shops why Nani Nani!

[dwalker]

Oh very good, i appreciate all that information. ..
Another thing i found was that some lillian rods are "sticky" even when brand new. sticky meaning the rod tip takes a bit of jiggling before it comes out of the second piece. ....

in regard to using the keiryu methods/designs for tenkara, i cant see why they would use lillians over the metal tip on tenkara rods, .....
i feel like we are trying to decipher ancient manuscript, haha. I guess i would have to go to japan and ask the shops why Nani Nani!

You're welcome. I had fun searching for the info.

I think, but perhaps I am wrong, one reason the Lillian might be preferred over the metal tip is that it may weight less than the metal tip. Though both are very light. The reduced weight may reduce oscillation of the rod tip at the end of the forward cast. Which is perhaps more important for tenkara techniques. Maybe not so import on the longer rods, which are the ones that use the metal tips.

That being said, I found a Daiwa rod, that has a metal tip, but on the rod webpage they compare the lillian to the metal tip. (link is below). It was a bit hard to translate. But what I got from it was the metal tip is more sensitive. The lillian tip less sensitive and prone to stretching. It did not appear to say anything about the metal metakaraman tip being stronger or more reliable.

Some people prefer a wood or bamboo grip or maybe no grip material at all - over a cork or foam grip, because they say it is more sensitive to detecting a fish hit on the fly. Maybe it's somewhat the same idea. Do away with something that is soft and flexible and it's more sensitive. Do away with springs and shocks on your car, and it will be more sensitive to every bump in the road.

You might find this blog post interesting. (however, it is in Japanese). The blogger's name is Yuu. In this blog post he replaces the lillian. Because it was damaged. Some of the steps would be similar if you want to remove the lillian and replace it with a metal tip of some kind.

http://petauro.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/04/07/234224

Generally I see two names for the rod tip. 竿穂先 (sao hosaki) or 竿先端 (sao sentan).
The normal or common lillian, as seen on Yuu's blog post will frequently be called a 普通リリアン (futsū Ririan). A good search term would be Normal Lillian Rod Tip, 普通リリアン・竿先端.

Some people prefer them over the type of a lillian that rotates, because they don't like the rattle sound it makes. They remove them and replace them with a normal lillian.

The type of lillian that rotates, sometimes called a no tangle or Rolling Top lillian.
Or called a Karaman Lillian. リリアンカラマン or からまんリリアン. I think Karaman is an abbreviated form of Karamanai, からまない = not tangled.

You might sometimes see this term 絡み糸. karami ito or garami ito . = yarn entanglement iow, tangled line.
(some times characters change their phonetic sound, in this cast k or g, due to something in the Japanese language called Rendaku, 連濁 = Sequential voicing or phonic change of unvoiced to voiced sound)

It can be confusing when trying to translate Japanese when you don't really speak the language. One word for Fishing is 釣り(tsuri). But add it to the end of Tenara for Tenkara Fishing , テンカラ釣り ( Tenkaradzuri) The Ts becomes Dz.

There are many types of metal tips in use. One I've seen is called a メタからマン / メタからまん (metakaraman) I think Meta is short for メタル (metaru) = metal , thus Metal Karaman. Or a metal no tangle rod tip. メタからまん・竿先端 .

Here is one example from Daiwa.
http://www.daiwaweb.com/jp/resources/fishing/item/rod/keiryu_rd/ryuha_metal/image/metakaraman.jpg

Used on the Daiwa 流覇 メタルチューン rod. Something like Supreme Flow Metal Tune rod. Which is a 5.99m or 6.97m rod.

Another type used on a Shimano rod it the 回転「超感」トップ ( Kaiten `chō-kan' toppu) Rotating Super Sensitive Top.
http://fishing.shimano.co.jp/product/rod/images/3869/free_02_img03.jpg


It is used on their リミテッドプロ RS HF［LIMITED PRO RS HF］rod, which is a 9 - 9.3 meter zoom rod.

Anyway, you can find many different kinds of metal tips. Some rotate or roll, some do not. It would take some effort to locate and order one that would fit you rods should you decide to try replacing the Lillian with one. But it could probably be done.

The Daiwa EP テクニカルチューン M・F (EP Technical Tune M F) rod is the one I found where they compare the lillian and metakarman tip. Under the heading of 感度アップ (kando appu) which translates as Sensitivity Up. My guess is it means Increased Sensitivity. In comparison to the lillian. It comes in 3 models. From 5.5m to 7m in length.

http://www.daiwaweb.com/jp/fishing/item/rod/keiryu_rd/ep_technicaltune_mf/

More evidence that they only use a metal tip on the longer rods. I think there must be various reasons why Lillians are used on one type of rods, generally shorter models, and a metal tip or top of some type is used generally only on longer rods. Durability doesn't seem to be the reason. As you can see in the names chosen by both Daiwa and Shimano for different types of metal tips, they manage to include the name "sensitivity" in the name. With names like High Sensitivity or Super Sensitive. I think that must be the main reason . But why that is more important or more desirable on longer rods I do not know as I don't have one, and don't know anyone who fishes with one.

Top section not coming out.

I have one rod that I frequently had trouble getting the top or tip section to come out when I wanted to extend the rod.
It had a fairly thin lillian. And I had tied a figure 8 knot in the end of the lillian. But that knot was still small enough it would go inside the second section when the rod was collapsed. And I would have a difficult time getting it out.

Sometimes I had to remove the butt cap and blow into the second section to push it out. Later I had the idea to take a 6 inch piece of small diameter dacron line, tied the two ends together to make a loop. When I put the rod away I would make a girth hitch knot over the end of the lillian. Leave the end of the loop extending out of the end of the rod, and put the rod cap on. That worked well.

Then one day it dawned on me that I only use fluorocarbon level line with the rod. I really didn't need a knot in the end of the lillian. And I removed it. The lillian itself was small enough to not bind inside section 2. The knot had been small enough to go inside section 2, but big enough that it would bind inside. No knot resulted in No more problems getting the rod to extend. Maybe trying one of those two ideas will solve your problem getting your rod to extend.

If you track down and order a metal rod tip and replace the lillian on your tenkara rod with it. Post back with the results. Whether you like it better or find it created new unexpected problems.

D

[dwalker]

A suggestion on another forum which he believes might decrease damage to the Lillian is if it is long enough - wrap the Lillian 3x through the slip knot loop, instead of only twice as shown on most instruction diagrams. Thereby spreading the stress over a larger area.

He gains extra length on shorter Lillian by not putting a stop knot on the end. And the stop knot is only recommended when you are attaching a furled line with a girth hitch. Not really needed with Level Line. Might be worth trying instead of seeking to find a Binkan or other type metal tip.

D

[Goldkenshin]

hmmm, very interesting, i think your right, the triple wrap would reduce stress and cutting into the lillian, theoretically anyway. i would have to try it.

As far as replacing the lillian with the super sensitive metal tops, i dont think i hate the lillians that much, hahaha. i can stand them, they are a great piece of engineering, and i think because longer rods lose sensitivity due to length(distance between hand and fly) that they designed the direct connection of the super sensitive metal tops. where tenkara rods are short enough that the sensitivity lost though using a lillian is negligible.

i like the different ways they are producing the metal tips too, that square one looks like a tiny hammer, haha.

[dwalker]

I received as email from Chris Stewart with a reply offering his opinion on this topic. He had no idea why the metal tips are not used on Tenkara rods. Unless it has something to do with concern that the lines would come loose. The keiryu rods with the metal tips use thinner lines than used for tenkara. However, he wrote that he had used a no. 3 line with a rod with metal tip & had no problem.

He also helped clarify the principle difference between the sensitivity of the Lillian tip vs metal tip as illustrated on the Daiwa Technical Tune rod at the link posted earlier. If you look at the pictures of the Lillian tipped rod & the binkan tipped rod - when tension is first applied to the line on the rod with the Lillian , only the Lillian moves, the rod tip moves very little. As the line pull increases the rod tip finally moves farther. The tip of the binkan tip rod deflects more for the same line tension. Thus it is a more sensitive rod.

This blog post may also show how Keiryu rods are much different from Tenkara,

http://www.tenkarabum.com/strike-detection.html

Also he wondered if your Lillian is always fraying or being damaged right at the rod tip. If yes - then you might have a sharp edge on the tip, which you would want to smooth or round over next time you replace it. If not that the only other thing to suspect is the wrong type of LL slip knot or maybe just being tightened too much.

To satisfy my own curiosity about why metal tips are not used on tenkara rods I submitted the question to Sakakibara Masami Team Oni. If anyone would know they would. If my question doesn't get lost in the flood of questions they receive when I revive an answer. I will post their reply here.

D

[Goldkenshin]

its only one of my lillians that prematurely ripped. it was in the middle of the lillian. i THINK my friend who used it left the lillian sticking out of the rod cap. perhaps the damage came from that, ive told him multiple times too. haha.

another thing that came to mind is why keiryu depends on strike detection more than tenkara. this confuses me because keiryu is designed for bait fishing and when fish take live bait, they usually dont spit it out like they would a fly. so technically tenkara needs more strike detection because you might miss a take due to artificial lures/flies. in my mind it should be the opposite. keiryu should have the lillians because once a fish takes live bait, they eat it, unlike lures/flies (generally). Basically what im saying is: tenkara(flies/streamers, etc.) would seem to benefit from the metal tip more than keiryu(live bait) because of the fact that fish are more likely to spit fake food and thus missing the bite and losing the fish.

my only guess is that the metal tips arent as fluid in the casting as the lillian. and tenkara seems to be more about delicate fluid casting motions. maybe they decided the loss of castability wasnt worth the gain on durability and sensitivity for tenkara specific rods. perhaps they tried putting the metal tips on tenkara rods and found it to be better with the lillian. Who knows

Amazing, i appreciate your interest in this topic. i wonder what masami has to say about this.

[dwalker]

One advantage the Lillian tip rod has over a rod with a metal tip is that it is easier to protect the rod tip from being broken when connecting the level line. On a rod with a Lillian tip the recommended procedure is to leave the rod tip inside the barrel of the grip section, placing your finger over the end, thereby trapping the rod tip inside, leaving only the Lillian exposed while you attach the level line. No way to break the rod tip by pushing the rod tip sideways.

On a rod with a metal tip you will have to extend the rod tip out side the barrel of the grip section while attaching the line. Extra care will be needed to not push the rod tip sideways and possibly snap it off. On another forum a guy, Adam, who has a keiryu rod with a metal tip pointed out this need for taking extra care to support the rod tip while connecting the line. That was something I had not thought about.

D

[Markpdx]

Different Stokes. I was an industrial product designer for eight years, problem solving various materials and situations for what I and others felt were optimal product development.
From the moment I saw a lillian and used it, once, I ordered a replacement lillian (longer) and converted it to a loop end, removed the brand new lillian, and epoxied on teh new loop end, for loop-to-loop connections for my various types of lines I use. I have yet to see a loop-to-loop connection fail on a single-hand or Spey rod. Never looked back. It disperses the line force over a larger area the a single piece of lilliman for greater strength and longevity.
Someone may foolishly say, "a lillian knot is faster." So. Who would really care if it is faster.
They care about the effort, time, and money it takes to get to the river, and have a good fishing experience. A bad experience would be having lillian failure. Single-hand and Spey fishermen don't use lillians for a reason, and it is never time. It is reliability and strength.