The Tenkara USA Forum is no longer active, and is now a read-only resource. If you’re interested in current topics and discussions, please join us on the Facebook Tenkara Anglers group (link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/tenkara.anglers/)

New Ayu series II is now availible.

Discussion on tenkara rods

Re: New Ayu series II is now availible.

Postby TJ @ Tenkara USA » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:00 pm

tsegelke wrote:No need to be defensive TJ. I will be spending a lot of time on the American and the creeks around your neck of the woods early in the season to see if you are sticking to it though. :lol:

Can't wait for the season to open, and hope to see all on the waters.


Did not think I was.

Had all sorts of laughing faces all over the post.

Sorry if that is how it came across.

8-)

TJ
Tenkara USA, Director of Customer Service

Tenkara Junkie - Tenkarajankī
Now sporting all of the Tenkara USA Rods!
User avatar
TJ @ Tenkara USA
 
Posts: 1668
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am
Location: Northern California

Re: New Ayu series II is now availible.

Postby John @ Tenkara USA » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:05 pm

It's very important that we at Tenkara USA do everything we can to make sure that our products are good enough for our customers, even if that means trying out a different rod than we were planning on fishing. TJ, you're an inspiration to me. ;)
John Geer at Tenkara USA
John @ Tenkara USA
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:27 am
Location: Belgrade, MT

Re: New Ayu series II is now availible.

Postby Karl Klavon » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:49 pm

I believe TJ's description of the cast being the distance from the angler to the fly's landing point is accurate and spot on.

Perhaps I fish smaller streams than a lot of you do, but I often fish lines that are 2 feet shorter than rod length including the tippet and the fly, which helps a lot in doing the bow-and-arrow cast, which I use a lot on tightly vegetated streams and on lakes where rod movement would spook shore cruising fish. I have also fished lines as short as 6 and 7 feet in length on very narrow streams, not including the tippet, which is usually about 3 feet long in those cases.

I know casting and fishing long lines is popular with many Tenkara anglers fishing the larger streams and rivers, the assumption being that a longer line allows you to cover more water and supposedly catch more fish. As I see it the principle advantage that Tenkara fly fishing has to offer over Western fly fishing is the ability of the Tenkara angler to hold nearly all of his line up and off of the water, thus avoiding drag in his presentations. Consequently, I fail to see much of an advantage in fishing a line that is substantially longer than the amount of line you can hold up and off of the water. To do so just causes the Tenkara angler to have to deal with all the same presentation problems that his Western angling counterpart has to deal with in Western fly fishing.

There are also other disadvantages I can see to using long lines besides the presentation problems noted above. One was demonstrated to me by a video I watched of a Colorado fisherman fishing the Ito rod and trying to land a fish on a line that was not all that long. He had to reach above his head as far as he could reach with his rod hand and then lay the rod back to reach his line. While the trout was hooked all of 15 feet out in front of the angler, and the fly was placed on the water only 2 feet ahead of the fish's taking point. The line length was way overkill for the conditions he was fishing under in the video.

I saw a second video of a Tenkara Master fishing a stream in Japan using the Long Line Technique, where he had to walk 20 feet back away from the water's edge to make the cast to the fish he was trying to catch, because his line was so long that he could not properly cast to the fish from where he was standing when he first saw the fish. The monsoon rains they get in Japan strip the streams and rivers of waterside vegetation to a point that we do not get here at all, in my experience, in the US. Here, in a lot of places, if the angler had to back up that far from the water's edge, you could not even see the fish or water you are trying to cast to. That's one of the reasons why I fish extremely short lines on a lot of the streams that I fish - 10 and 13 foot long lines often cause you to loose sight of too much of the water you are trying to fish. And landing your fish is greatly simplified by using a shorter than rod length line.

I believe a lot of the long line technique is a mistaken attempt by Tenkara fly fishermen to try to compete with the distance casting abilities of Western fly fishermen. Tenkara fly fishing is essentially a short range fishing tool, just like a shot gun is a short range bird harvesting tool. To try to give Tenkara tackle the deer rifle range casting capabilities of Western fly fishing does a disservice to Tenkara fly fishing in my view. If any angler can take advantage of 50% of the trout that are within reach of a line that is equal to the length of the rod he is fishing, he will be able to catch more than enough fish to satisfy most of us.
Last edited by Karl Klavon on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Karl Klavon
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:01 am

Re: New Ayu series II is now availible.

Postby craigthor » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:53 pm

Karl Klavon wrote:I believe TJ's description of the cast being the distance from the angler to the fly's landing point is accurate and spot on.

Perhaps I fish smaller streams than a lot of you do, but I often fish lines that are 2 feet shorter than rod length including the tippet and the fly, which helps a lot in doing the bow-and-arrow cast, which I use a lot on tightly vegetated streams and on lakes where rod movement would spook shore cruising fish. I have also fished lines as short as 6 and 7 feet in length on very narrow streams, not including the tippet, which is usually about 3 feet long in those cases.

I know casting and fishing long lines is popular with many Tenkara anglers fishing the larger streams and rivers, the assumption being that a longer line allows you to cover more water and supposedly catch more fish. As I see it the principle advantage that Tenkara fly fishing has to offer over Western fly fishing is the ability of the Tenkara angler to hold nearly all of his line up and off of the water, thus avoiding drag in his presentations. Consequently, I fail to see much of an advantage in fishing a line that is substantially longer than the amount of line you can hold up and off of the water. To do so just causes the Tenkara angler to have to deal with all the same presentation problems that his Western angling counterpart has to deal with in Western fly fishing.

There are are also other disadvantages I can see to using long lines besides the presentation problems noted above. One was demonstrated by a video I watched of a Colorado fisherman fishing the Ito rod and trying to land a fish on a line that was not all that long. He had to reach above his head as far as he could reach with his rod hand and then lay the rod back to reach his line. While the trout was hooked all of 15 feet out in front of the angler, and the fly was placed on the water only 2 feet ahead of the fish's taking point. The line length was way overkill for the conditions he was fishing under.

I saw a second video of a Tenkara Master fishing a stream in Japan using the Long Line Technique, where he had to walk 20 feet back away from the water's edge to make the cast to the fish he was trying to catch, because his line was so long that he could not properly cast to the fish from where he was standing when he first saw the fish. The monsoon rains they get in Japan strip the streams and rivers of waterside vegetation to a point that we do not get here in the US. Here, in a lot of places, if the angler had to back up that far from the water, you could not even see the fish or water you are trying to cast to. That's one of the reasons why I fish extremely short lines on a lot of the streams that I fish - 10 and 13 foot long lines often cause you to loose sight of too much of the water you are trying to fish. And landing your fish is greatly simplified by using a shorter than rod length line.

I believe a lot of the long line technique is a mistaken attempt by Tenkara fly fishermen to try to compete with the distance casting abilities of Western fly fishermen. Tenkara fly fishing is essentially a short range fishing tool, just like a shot gun is a short range bird harvesting tool. To try to give Tenkara tackle the deer rifle range capabilities of Western fly fishing does a disservice to Tenkara fly fishing in my view. If any angler can take advantage of 50% of the trout that are within reach of a line that is the length of the rod he is fishing, he will be able to catch more than enough fish to satisfy most of we Tenkara anglers.


Not sure this could be worded any better, mind if I copy this to another forum?
craigthor
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:06 pm
Location: Robins, IA

Re: New Ayu series II is now availible.

Postby John @ Tenkara USA » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:57 pm

You make some very good points, but a 20' level line that qualifies as a long line to most tenkara anglers can still be held off of the water with 14'7" or even 13' rod, although granted not as easily. Also, I haven't seen the video of the Colorado angler you mention, but even with long lines I keep my rod hand below my ear when landing fish, in fact I think it becomes more imperative to keep my rod hand low and not push the line away from me by raising it. The Japanese angler you mentioned may well have needed to stay that far back without the stream side cover to break his silhouette and avoid spooking Japan's notoriously skittish fish.

Don't take any of this as me saying you're wrong, only that we all fish in different situations and that long lines can be an asset to many of us. Please keep sticking with shorter lines if that's what works for you and that's what you enjoy.
John Geer at Tenkara USA
John @ Tenkara USA
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:27 am
Location: Belgrade, MT

Re: New Ayu series II is now availible.

Postby Karl Klavon » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:03 pm

Craigthor, sure. Anything I post is free game for anyone who can use it to use it in any way they see fit for any purpose or purposes they see fit to use it for as long as it is not taken out of context.

John, in the video with the Tenkara Master I was speaking of, he spotted the fish (which could be seen rising in the stream repeatedly on a steady basis) and the angler backed away diagonally to the point where his line could be placed to intercept the rising fish. And then he cast to, hooked, landed and released the fish, which was faster and easier than changing to a shorter line would have been under the circumstances.

I have been fly fishing for more than 40 years now. In my conversations with other non-Tenkara anglers with considerable Western fly fishing experience, two main concerns continually crop up regarding Tenkara fly fishing: 1. The limited casting distance of Tenkara fly fishing compared to Western fly fishing tackle; and 2. The incorrectly perceived in ability of Tenkara anglers to land large fish with out the ability to give out line or have a drag on a reel. Neither of which have I found to be nearly as limiting as all of these un-Tenkara educated anglers believe that they would be.

With regard to the selling of Tenkara fly rods to a skeptical angling public, the ability to cast a considerable length of line will, I am sure, sell many more Tenkara fly rods than demonstrating short line techniques. But in actual fishing, I do not believe long lines (and I have read of 30 to 50 foot casting distances being used and quoted) are not actually as useful as it is commonly believed that they would be. Even in Western fly fishing the majority of stream caught trout are caught inside of 25 feet away from the angler. Casting long distances and trying to manage a lot of line on the water is the undoing of most Western fly fishermen as well. Distance casting technique is fairly easy to teach and learn. Stealth, stream craft, and the ability to spot fish in the water before you scare them is not nearly as easy to teach and for most anglers to learn.
Karl Klavon
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:01 am

Re: New Ayu series II is now availible.

Postby John @ Tenkara USA » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:21 pm

I agree that most western anglers not familiar with tenkara are most concerned with casting distance and ability to land a big fish, and also that neither are as big a problem as they assume. Landing fish seems to come up much more often with the many anglers I've talked to in the fly shop I use to work, and the fishing shows I've worked for Tenkara USA. I would also agree that most fish are caught inside of 25' by both western and tenkara anglers.

I would not agree that casts of over 30' have no merit. Even if most anglers don't need them, some will find them very helpful. Personally I find that long lines make fishing large western rivers much easier and open up a lot of previously unreachable water without dangerous wading or the nearly impossible mending western fly fishing would require. Plus, sometimes I just like to fish long lines for the challenges they present.

I should clarify that a 20' line qualifies as long for me. I've caught fish on lines out to the mid twenties that I wouldn't have been able to reach otherwise, but a 20' line with 4' to 5' of tippet is the longest line I regularly use. I'm not sure how long this is in a foot to fly measurement. I've seen both Daniel and Dr. Ishigaki fish longer lines with greater ease and success.

For the record, I also often fish lines shorter than my rod on small streams, so I can see where you are coming form. Fishing in that manner makes for terrific line control and great efficiency and is often the best choice on that type of water. I just suggest that every situation is different, and regardless of what will be best for most anglers in most situations, there are times when fishing a long line is a valid choice. For those of us who regularly fish larger rivers, those situations may be more common than you would think and shouldn't be dismissed as impractical or a disservice to tenkara.
John Geer at Tenkara USA
John @ Tenkara USA
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:27 am
Location: Belgrade, MT

Re: New Ayu series II is now availible.

Postby Adam Trahan » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:34 am

I use as long of a rod as possible with a line short as I can.

That is a generalization of my technique.

In my quiver of about 5 rods, they go from 3m to 4.5m with half of my rods being longer with a ZOOM function.

Short lines being about as long as the rod + a meter of tippet. This is the configuration that I am settling on from my own experiences. My favorite mountain valley tight quarters Tenkara rod is a HARD tone, 7:3 rod of 3m using a fine braided line of the same length. With this rod, I have about 20' of reach, most fish are caught much closer and this is so much fun over a long line. I know I am stealthy when I am catching fish this close in having stalked and creeping up to them without being detected, then getting a cast in without being detected and enticing the trout to strike.

For the rest of my Tenkara which is about 70% of the time in meadow streams, I use a level line as light as possible.

On these open streams, I am as far from the water as possible. I am far back from the edge. My favorite length for a Tenkara rod for open water casting is 4m give or take a little. I use a line just as long with a meter of tippet.

In all situations, I avoid standing in the water or worse, moving from one area to the other in the water. I try to walk on the rocks but again, I try to avoid the water. Water transmits sound much better than air and if the water is not turbulating rocks, your presence will be known the first rock that you move against another. Large fish are smart and are oriented to anything that is not natural. Rocks clacking are not a friendly sound. Almost 90% or more of the fish I take are back from the edge of the stream, does not matter what kind of rod that I have in my hand.

That is a tenant of my stream fishing.

When choosing a rod, I use the rod length more than the line length. I choose the longest rod possible and use the shortest possible line, the line no shorter than the rod if I can get away with it.

Longer lines are beautiful in the air but are difficult to manage. The more experience we have, the longer the line we can fish effectively.

Is fishing a longer line a better technique?

I think the choice of rod/line length that catches fish is the best technique. If you choose a short rod and a long line, and you are catching fish at a good rate, then that is the best choice. If I chose a long rod and a short line and I'm catching fish at a good rate, then that is my best choice.

I think we should all challenge ourselves, I think it is best to learn all lengths of rods and lines but it is not necessary if one is catching fish.


Tenkara can be the means that justify the end or the other way around. Fishing can be as competitive or as contemplative as one makes it.



For me, the rod/line length is a function of reach and that is based in stealth. For thin, gin clear streams with little surface disturbance, I am as far away from the fish as possible.

The largest streams I have fished with a Tenkara rod, I can still cast across. As I venture deeper into Tenkara and fish a wider, more broad spectrum of moving water, I may chose longer lines. I do know longer lines are more difficult to land fish, harder to control the fly and a lot less stealth if not used with lots of practice behind them. With long lines, more than likely, I'm in the water too and I would rather hunt fish than blindly cast to them.

I hunt with a Tenkara rod, I'm searching the water ever before I get to the edge and most of my fish are caught well behind the waters edge, about the length of the rod from it.

So the quote above, it is loosely what I do.

For my Zoom rods, I use a line about as long as the longest length of the rod + a meter of tippet. With the rod nested, the line is longer than the rod. My Zoom rods are for open meadow streams where stealth in casting and hiding is of utmost importance.

Masami's videos of casting long lines are fantastic, lovely, I enjoy them however it is not the type of water that is at my disposal. I do look forward to fishing the Merced and more of my home water, the Colorado River where 15,000cfs and a wide vista of water awaits for me to hunt my fish. I'll still start out with the longest rod possible with the shortest line, that being about the length of the rod.
Adam Trahan
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:42 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ - USA

Re: New Ayu series II is now availible.

Postby Karl Klavon » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:01 pm

I have to admit that the streams and rivers that I fish are not big waters by most people's standards, although I did fish the Kings river once last year when it was running at better than 5,000 cubic feet a second, which was not particularly fun at all for me. The river was too high, swift and deep to wade in most places at that time. In that instance most of the fish were tight to the bank because they were trying to get out of the swift flows, as well.

On the matter of wading, yes staying out of the water is often the best strategy to use if you can get away with it. On a lot of the small streams I am fishing there are willows, azaleas, umbrella plants, alder trees and bushes, buck brush and what not nearly everywhere growing right up to and often overhanging the water. The alley of the stream lying in between the vegetation on both banks of the stream (and sometimes penetrating into each other overhead) is the only avenue in which to make an overhead cast, so I do a lot of side arm and bow-and-arrow casting while standing in the water of the streams that I am fishing. These are the kinds of streams that most Western fly fishermen avoid like the plague, and that's all well and good as far as I am concerned.

I usually wade upstream as close as I can get to the vegetation on the left hand bank because I am a right handed caster. But using fixed line rods has opened up my casting possibilities much more than the Western fly tackle ever allowed me to do. But on most of the streams I fish, to fish them at all and effectively, you have to be willing to wade in the water to fish most of the time. Of course it is always a good idea to drift a fly over the water you are going to have to wade through before you actually step into the water. And it is surprising how many times you will hook fish almost right at your feet doing that. And I have had times when I put the rod over my shoulder and let the fly trail in the water behind me while wading upstream to a new casting position and caught a fish out of previously fished or wadded through water. Our flies catch the most fish while they are in or on the water.

These are the streams I used to fish with Western 3 Wt. fly rods of from 5 feet 8 inches to 6 foot 9 inches in length, over lined with a 5.5 Wt. short front tapered floating fly line, and a leader no longer than the rod was long. And a lot of the time the fly line never even hit the water and I caught a lot of fish in these kinds of streams with practically no competition coming from other fly fishermen.

Doing theTenkara style fishing with fixed line rods using the same fly patterns that I used before (which are all dry flies), I am using longer rods now than I used before - 9 to 12 foot long fixed line rods with as short a line as I can usually get away with. The stealth requirements are about the same to catch fish in these little streams regardless of the tackle being used but, the longer rods do allow me to fish the same water from a little farther away, so it is actually a little easier now than it was before to catch fish. The collapsible rod, however, makes it much easier to move from fishing spot to fishing spot than it was before with my Western tackle, so I feel I am well a head of the game fishing with Tenkara style tackle now.

And although this kind of stream fishing probably sounds like a real hassle to most of you, it is a nice change of pace from fishing heavily fished waters for hatchery trout. If these kinds of streams have any trout in them at all, they will all be wild fish. Most of the trout in these little streams are not big in size but there are exceptions that come a long from time to time. And the rewards you get from this kind of fishing is all out of proportion to the size of the fish you will be catching. Beautiful water, solitude, no competition for the fish or the fishing makes this kind of fishing well worth the effort involved to do it in my book.
Karl Klavon
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:01 am

Re: New Ayu series II is now availible.

Postby John @ Tenkara USA » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:53 pm

That actually sounds like really fun and rewarding fishing. From the way you describe it, I'm sure I'd fish a short line there, as well.
John Geer at Tenkara USA
John @ Tenkara USA
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:27 am
Location: Belgrade, MT

PreviousNext

Return to Tenkara Rods

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests