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Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Postby dwalker » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:22 pm

Sometimes it's difficult to remember how you arrived at where you are. Somehow today I discovered two, new to me, Tenkara blogs. The Northwest Tenkara Blog. That discussed a video on another Tenkara blog in the UK, Discover Tenkara Blog.

The subject of discussion was two tenkara rod grips learned from Dr. Ishigaki during his visit to the UK earlier this year. The Ju (soft) and Go ( hard) grip.

The Go grip is the familiar index finger on top grip. But here they are talking about it not so much during casting but during the fly presentation. Go for casting and fly presentation and Ju for fly presentation only. Both grips are used during the fly presentation in the video and they say the slight differences may make a difference in whether the fish will take the fly.

I'm not sure I fully understand the differences between the two grips and how they change the presentation of the fly because I haven't tried it yet . Firstly because I just discovered the blog entries and secondly, it's cold out, with a bit of thin ice on the slow water in the stream in front of my house. But I thought I would pass the information along before getting to try it myself.

From my experience Go is the Japanese name for an ancient board game I play an usually lose. However, in the world of Tenkara the term Go has its own meaning. I don't recall hearing the term Ju before. Daniel, in his latest casting video shows and alternate casting grip, I think he called it the V-grip, but it is for casting, not for a softer or more subtle fly presentation.

The two blog entries describe the grip in different ways and the original blog entry includes a 90 second video of Dr Ishigaki fishing and switching between the two grips as he is fishing a small stream.

http://northwest-tenkara.com/ju-go/

http://www.discovertenkara.co.uk/small-details-add-up-hard-and-soft/


;)
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Re: Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Postby GregM » Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:47 am

dwalker wrote:... and they say the slight differences may make a difference in whether the fish will take the fly.


Only Tim on Northwest Tenkara suggests that the grip makes a difference, based on his Single session on the river.

Sensitivity to strikes is definitely affected by the grip used, but how that could translate into a better presentation, once the fly is on the water, seems to be a bit of a stretch.
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Re: Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Postby adventureR » Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:53 am

Just like the description of how a rod feels is very subjective so is the sensitivity each person has for feeling a bite. Just a guess since I wasn't watching the fishing session all day I'd say Dr. Ishigaki's palm could easily feel the bite. Also that rod looks really interesting. Looking at a glance like his hand was finding a comfortable spot while concentrating. What a nice little stream to fish!
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Re: Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Postby 257ROBT » Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:43 am

I have seen this video before. Part of me wonders if the grip is changed because having sore hands or something that simple. I know that if I am fishing and I have my finger on top, there are instances when my hand goes numb. I have used the soft grip and it helps rid me off the pain.

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Re: Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Postby jd_smith » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:42 pm

GregM wrote:
dwalker wrote:... and they say the slight differences may make a difference in whether the fish will take the fly.


Only Tim on Northwest Tenkara suggests that the grip makes a difference, based on his Single session on the river.

Sensitivity to strikes is definitely affected by the grip used, but how that could translate into a better presentation, once the fly is on the water, seems to be a bit of a stretch.


There's plenty of people that realize that alternative grips can be used to present flies differently while casting them as well as in presentation onto the water or it's manipulation during the drift.

Referencing just this one article in particular shows several people find that the grip makes a subtle difference in manipulation. Dr Ishigaki showed it and obviously believes in it. Paul from Discover Tenkara and who ever else he has referenced as "we" noticed it and found that there is something to it. Dave Southall commented on it and said "Very subtle & very interesting, little things can make a big difference." Tim from Northwest Tenkara said he tried it and found that he will employ it more in the future as well. Plenty of reinforcement there that suggests differing grip can make subtle variations that sometimes make notable differences.

I've been using different grips for years in casting and presentation in both tenkara and with a rod and reel setup, but never that particular variation. It looks interesting so I'm going to try that particular variation in grip for myself to see what kind of change I can find in my presentation. I certainly won't disregard it or even discount it until I've at least tried it for myself.


Thanks for posting it dwalker.
Last edited by jd_smith on Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Postby johnnyv145 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:45 pm

Dr. Ishigaki and I have discussed grip pressures quite a bit over the past couple of years. I have had the pleasure of fishing with him one-on-one quite a few times for entire days on the water. Here are a few things I have learned from fishing with him.

1. You can change grip pressure during a cast. I use a firm grip on the initial uptake on the back cast then lighten the pressure on my index and middle fingers and thumb on the pause. Light grip pressure on the forward cast with a deliberate tension of my index finger tip on the grip or the blank of the rod just above the grip as the line lays out. This does a couple of things. 1. It gets more of the rod to load and release it's energy . 2. It give me control over how much and where the stored energy is released.

2. On long or tip heavy rods, I switch to a thumb on top grip using the same variable grip pressure techniques. This gives me a lot more power control and lessens hand fatigue with long, tip heavy rods.

3. Figure out what type of grip works for you. Thumb on top, index finger on top, it does not really matter. If you have arthritis or carpal tunnel syndrome and the whole index finger on top thing does not work for you, don't sweat it.

4. Most tenkara anglers benefit from a softer grip and less power on the casting.

5. You can move your casting hand forward slightly using your elbow. It is a slight push forward just as the tippet lays out to decelerate the fly and get a nice soft landing/presentation.

6. Rod and body alignment are key to accuracy. Keep the rod tip moving in straight lines and keep your hand, elbow, and shoulder in alignment with the rod during the cast. If at all possible, get your casting side foot slightly forward.

The biggest things I have learned from fishing with Dr. Ishgaki are to relax and just have fun. Don't sweat the small stuff. When you fish with him in a non-teaching role, he laughs a lot and just likes to have a good time.
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Re: Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Postby dwalker » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:28 pm

GregM wrote:
dwalker wrote:... and they say the slight differences may make a difference ,,,,.

Only Tim on Northwest Tenkara suggests that the grip makes a difference, ......

Greg,
Thank you. You are correct, "they say", was the wrong phrase to use. I hated studying grammar in school only to later realize how important it is and now I try to improve my writing. My writing skills still need more work. Believe, think, imply would have also been a better word choice.

I was a nuclear reactor operator in the Navy. Among other things being an RO required an annual one on one interview with the CO, to assess if I had sufficient knowledge, common sense, and mental stability not to turn the inside of the submarine into a mini Fukushima thereby creating a long cigar-shaped pressure cooker. The interviews took place in the Captain's state room, which was the size of a large walk-in closet, above his head was a brass plaque with this quote, " Keep your words short and sweet because you may have to eat them." Advice that still eludes me. My snack has been served.

That being said. I believe Tim is not the only one who believes the two different grips make a subtle change in how the fish reacts to the fly presentation. The original blog post alone suggest or implies others also think using the alternate grip changes the way the fish respond to the fly manipulation.

Also it could be an incorrect assumption that Discover Tenkara got the terms Ju and Go from Dr. Ishigaki. They may have noticed the different grips and discussed it with him and he used those terms. Or they may have only noticed the two grips on the video after Dr. Ishigaki returned home and adopted the use of Ju and Go from their own knowledge of Japanese culture. It would be interesting to learn the answer to that question.


:)
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Re: Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Postby dwalker » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:38 pm

jd_smith wrote:There's plenty of people that realize that alternative grips can be used to present flies differently while casting them as well as in presentation onto the water or it's manipulation during the drift.

... It looks interesting so I'm going to try that particular variation in grip for myself to see what kind of change I can find in my presentation. I certainly won't disregard it or even discount it until I've at least tried it for myself.

Thanks for posting it dwalker.


JD,

You're welcome. I also look forward to giving it a try. I know sometimes I can entice fish to follow my fly but not strike. Maybe the alternate grip will help. Fish are funny creatures. Some days they respond to pulsing the fly, some days they respond more to pause then pulse or pulse then pause. Other days only dead drift seems to attract them. Or some other combination. Seems they have different moods too.

;)
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Re: Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Postby dwalker » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:45 pm

johnnyv145 wrote:Dr. Ishigaki and I have discussed grip pressures quite a bit over the past couple of years. I have had the pleasure of fishing with him one-on-one quite a few times for entire days on the water. Here are a few things I have learned from fishing with him.
....
2. On long or tip heavy rods, I switch to a thumb on top grip using the same variable grip pressure techniques. This gives me a lot more power control and lessens hand fatigue with long, tip heavy rods.

3. Figure out what type of grip works for you. Thumb on top, index finger on top, it does not really matter. If you have arthritis or carpal tunnel syndrome and the whole index finger on top thing does not work for you, don't sweat it.

4. Most tenkara anglers benefit from a softer grip and less power on the casting.

5. You can move your casting hand forward slightly using your elbow. It is a slight push forward just as the tippet lays out to decelerate the fly and get a nice soft landing/presentation.

....
The biggest things I have learned from fishing with Dr. Ishgaki are to relax and just have fun. Don't sweat the small stuff. When you fish with him in a non-teaching role, he laughs a lot and just likes to have a good time.


JohnnyV,

Thanks for your feedback. Good points about about casting. Did you ever discuss different grips during the fly presentation alone? Or hear Dr. Ishigaki use the terms Ju and Go when describing the fly presentation grips?

Good points about thumb on top and arm movement during the cast. On some Japanese tenkara sites or videos I do see the thumb on top grip fairly frequently. I was a little surprised Daniel did not mention it on his latest casting video. I sometimes use the thumb on top grip when casting the Ito with it extended to full length, which makes it tip heavy. I don't cast it fully extended very often, but sometimes it helps reach the fish you see or suspect is holding just a little further away.

Trying to analyze my arm movement during a cast, especially when casting longer lines, lines longer than rod length + 1.25 meter, it seems to work better for me if most of the small arm movement comes from my shoulder than from my elbow ( the elbow almost held rigid but relaxed. With maybe a slight forward push from the elbow at the end), with the appropriate wrist snap. Casting from the shoulder seems to keep the mechanics of the arm movement straight. But more elbow pivot seems OK when casting shorter lines.

It might be interesting to learn if pulsing the fly more from shoulder movement than wrist or elbow movement works better. I know when studying penmanship it is said that flowing smooth letters can only be written from forearm and shoulder movement keeping the fingers relaxed. And that guiding the pen with your fingers alone leaves your letters looking pinched, more chicken scratch-like than calligraphy art.

http://lifehacker.com/5910492/improve-your-handwriting-by-writing-with-your-shoulders-not-with-your-fingers

The small details do add up.

Team Oni gives the same advice, relax and have fun fishing.

;)
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Re: Dr Ishigaki Ju and Go Grip for Kebari Presentation

Postby adventureR » Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:48 pm

Upon further thought I couldn't help but think of the Bass sucking in the fly years ago on a crystal clear stream. The fly may have been in need of the slightest bit of slack to act properly to upon ingestion. I have noticed this on Trout a few times but most often with Bass. Depending on the movement on the fly by the currents a very subtle movement could be just what's needed or a bit of natural movement from slack.
I don't often think so much while fishing about the cast and manipulation. After just a couple years of fishing Tenkara understanding different techniques is difficult in its infancy for me. Then thinking of this compared to our Japanese brothers and sisters with decades under their wading belts.

It is nice to see some discussion about techniques. I enjoy thinking about these posts while the weathers windy and rainy here.
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