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Casting Trouble

Casting Trouble

Postby loafskibum » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:55 pm

I went out today for the first time with my Iwana rod. It is cold where I am (Maine) so the line was getting covered in ice after only a few minutes. When the line was covered in ice it seemed to cast a lot better. Is this a technique issue or is my line to light? I am just using a regular fishing line 15# test. Any thoughts would be great. My first few casts before the line get icy seem to just land a few feet past the end of the rod in a pile...Thanks!
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Re: Casting Trouble

Postby smitty » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:17 pm

Get fluorocarbon line in the recommended size for the rod. Only a very soft rod in zero wind can cast 15 lb mono.
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Re: Casting Trouble

Postby tsegelke » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:17 pm

Regular fishing line is not dense enough. I would either use level line (fluorocarbon), or a furled (traditional) line. The icing up of the line was adding the weight to the line. Just enough to cut through the air.
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Re: Casting Trouble

Postby dwalker » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:46 pm

loafskibum wrote:I went out today for the first time with my Iwana rod. ..... When the line was covered in ice it seemed to cast a lot better. Is this a technique issue or is my line to light? I am just using a regular fishing line 15# test. Any thoughts would be great. My first few casts before the line get icy seem to just land a few feet past the end of the rod in a pile...Thanks!


Hi loafskibum,

Welcome to the forum.

If I had to guess about what is causing your casting troubles I would say probably it's being caused by a combination of the line and improper casting technique. Even good tenkara level line will pile up not far past the end of the rod if your casting technique is poor. Usually I think this is caused more by poor timing of the rhythm of the cast, the arc of the cast and the stop at the end of the forward cast than anything else. 2 cents from a completely self-taught tenkara caster. ;)

Maybe this information from Jason at tenkaratalk is a good place to start and will be of some help

http://www.tenkaratalk.com/2012/03/western-vs-tenkara-casting-different-strokes/

There are many good casting videos that may help too. Here are a few found with a quick search. You can find others. Look to the other recommended related videos in the side bar of these videos or search the forum.

two short videos from Tenkara no oni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcGpsadqTO8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaFhT5WRmR4

And this 7:40 minute video from Daniel talks about different casting techniques, the cause of line piling up at the end of the cast is covered near the beginning of the video. A clear stop at the end of the forward cast is needed. I think this video is helpful. But Daniel like the rest of us has learned a lot about casting since this video was made and my bet is that he would teach casting a little differently today in a new updated tenkara casting video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrfBexhWzsY

I think you will find tenkara level line has a bit of stiffness to it. Most fishing line is kind of limp so it doesn't come off a spinning reel spool when casting. But I think most people find, or believe, line that is a little stiffer cast better with a tenkara rod.

Perhaps the ice forming on the line you were using made the line a little stiffer and that is why you found it to cast better after the line was cold and a little ice formed on the line. ( just my guess) . Or maybe the ice just made the line a little heavier. It takes a bit more skill to cast lighter line.

Tenkara casting is a bit like learning to ride a bicycle. Once you learn proper casting technique you will probably find you can cast less than idea line. You will probably find you can cast the line you are presently using after learning proper tenkara casting technique. But better to learn using line better suited for a tenkara casting techniques. Most people prefer fluorocarbon level line because it is denser than mono, though I do find in Japan they market mono tenkara line, which has the advantage of being stronger. And of course there is the option to use the traditional furled line.

The only way to learn tenkara casting is time spend casting practicing proper technique.

btw - you did not mention how long a line you were using. How long is the line you're casting ? That could also be a factor.

Hope this or others contributions are helpful to your casting.

;)
D
Tenkara is fundamental fishing fun
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Re: Casting Trouble

Postby adventureR » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:30 pm

D so informative, you should be on the payroll around here. I feel in the beginning a Level Line shorter or the same length as your Iwana is an easier way to practice at first. There are lines out there I've tried that can be casted for reel type rods. But they are not as easy to use, while there are exceptions on that. You can't go wrong with some tried and tested and true Level Line. The videos out there will be a great way to research good technique. Hard to add anything without knowing some specifics like D asked. Something I noticed while avoiding overhead trees doing a side cast, watch what your lines doing it can help too.
¿ <•,^~~<
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Re: Casting Trouble

Postby loafskibum » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:13 am

Thanks for all of the feedback! The line I was using was about 12ft. I am going to try a line switch next time I can get out.


Dan
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Re: Casting Trouble

Postby Anthony » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:12 am

I use 14# nylon often - but I am just about the only person that uses mono. It is harder to cast than fluorocarbon and traditional lines.

For a beginner - I would recommend a traditional furled line. Much easier to cast. Also shortening your tippet maybe could help depending on how long your using.

It is hard to describe casting in words - especially when you've never had casting lessons - as many, including myself, have not. But I think a few words could help.

I'll attempt to put into words what I do. First off My wife had a bit of a breakthrough when she realized that the cast is a 4 beat motion. Not 2. Also as mentioned above the plane of the stroke will be more vertical than a western cast - but that can change depending on line length.

1) The line is laying in the water or (grass if you're practicing.You make a fast flick back to get the line moving behind you.
2) Pause. Now you wait until the line is mostly unrolled behind you, before you begin the forward stroke. Too soon and the cast will collapse, too late and the cast will drop. With a western rod you can really feel the rod loading, with tenkara it's not as easy to feel.
3) Begin forward stroke. Point where you want the fly to go. This stroke is fairly gentle. I have found with a tenkara rod if you try to force the forward stroke with too much power the cast will actually collapse on you. So if the cast is not laying out it could be the timing - see above - or you could be overpowering it.
4) Pause. let the cast roll out in front of you, on the forward stroke. Once you get the hang of it you can try to "check" the cast. That is you give a quick pause, almost a slight backward motion, and cause the fly to tuck under the line and hit the water before the line.

So that's my two cents - I hope I don't get reprimanded by the casting experts for too much bad advice :shock:
Ebisu (now retired), Iwana 11'ft (with additional short handle - also retired), Amago, Ito, Ayu II, Rhodo, Sato
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Re: Casting Trouble

Postby dwalker » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:47 pm

Anthony wrote:...
1) ....You make a fast flick back to get the line moving behind you.
2) Pause. Now you wait until the line is mostly unrolled behind you, before you begin the forward stroke. ...
...
3) Begin forward stroke. ..... This stroke is fairly gentle. I have found with a tenkara rod if you try to force the forward stroke with too much power the cast will actually collapse on you. So if the cast is not laying out it could be the timing - see above - or you could be overpowering it.
..
So that's my two cents - I hope I don't get reprimanded by the casting experts for too much bad advice :shock:


Ha, me too. More advice from another who thinks and hopes he isn't passing on bad advice. :shock:

On point 1 - Two things -
a) I agree an extra bit of zip goes into back cast compared to the forward cast.

This came up on the forum several months ago in a discussion about casting long lines when Eddie introduced the the concept of line speed and TBum mentioned that Tenkara no oni had told him the power of the cast begins in the back cast. I think this is the single most important concept that has helped my casting.

b) I think it helps to think of the back cast as more of an up cast.
Look at Jason's diagram and you see the western back cast goes rearward. But the tenkara back cast goes up about 40 - 45 degrees. I believe the line goes where you're thinking. When riding motorcycles they say you go where you look. Look at the pothole and you hit it. But you look where you're thinking. I think the line goes where your thinking too.

On point 3 - agree , fairly gentle or a bit less zip than the back cast.

As Yogi Berra said, " You can see a lot by just looking. " If you look closely at the second Tenkara no oni casting video I think you can see all four of Anthony's points.

Four beats to the cast. The back cast is quickest,( the line goes up at 45 degrees, well above the head of the guy standing behind him.) The forward cast looks slower and more gentle than the back cast. And of course a bit of pause at the end of both strokes.

:)

D
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