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Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Re: Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Postby TJ @ Tenkara USA » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:14 pm

I am not sure the Sierra Nevada Foothills where I live have Carp. At least non that I have heard of.

Although we have ponds with bluegill and bass. 8-)

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Re: Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Postby Tenkara Guides » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:36 pm

I think that slower water/ponds are much easier to learn long line casting because you can see how your lines are laying out and how your flies are landing on the water. A big fat bass should be lots of fun, I haven't tried it yet, but next summer I will.

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Re: Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Postby adventureR » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:34 pm

Good long line info here. There's a lot of variables that go into the LL casting. I have found the furled line to be the best compared to level. The slightly heavier line allows more energy to get the line moving. The difference between 7:3 Yamame & 5:5 Ayu are big. The extra length of the rod and help of the flex on the Ayu make it seem better for the LL. A soft 15ft rod would be best from what little experience I have casting the LL. There's great knowledge here on this post. I'm very new to the Longer lines. It is frustrating for me sometimes to get a good practice session going without making a tangled mess. I have noticed also adding some sideways movement turning the cast assists with getting the line moving. Sometimes the straight forward and backward movements aren't enough. And loading the line using the pull of the fly from underwater helps too. The videos showing line movement are good, i need to work on one again. Good post TJ, LL Tenkara is fun!
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Re: Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Postby dwalker » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:18 pm

An interesting experiment is to compare someTenkara no oni videos. The one linked earlier where he is casting on the road and another one where he is filmed in profile view casting on the stream. Play the videos in high resolution, in full screen. Pause the video at the end of the back cast and at the end of the forward cast. Lay a piece of thin tracing paper over the video and trace the angle of the rod at the end of the back and forward cast. Align the starting point of each line as accurately as possible to the butt end of the rod. Keep your paper square to the screen for best accuracy.

Casting with Team Oni on the roadway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaFhT5WRmR4&feature=youtu.be

Notice that the back cast ends about about 10 degrees past the 12 o'clock position. The forward cast ends at about 33 degrees. So about the 2 o'clock position ( or 10 o'clock depending on which direction you're facing ;) )

The cast are pretty consistent , - 10 degrees to 33 degrees. 90 - 33 = 57 . So about 67 degrees of arc on each cast.

Now do the same thing where he is casting on the river. Each back cast goes a little further past 12 and ends at a lower angle, 20 degrees, but the rod tip is quickly raised to about the same angle as in the road way casting. About 35 degrees to 45 degrees position or somewhere between the two

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QmMkAUmVqQ&feature=plcp

The back cast ends about - 17 degrees past the 12 o'clock position. aka TJ's 12:45 position. About 60% of the way to 11 o'clock. The forward cast goes pretty consistently to about 20 degrees then very quickly the rod is raised to some where between 35 to 45 degrees. If 2 o'clock is 30 degrees and 1 o'clock is 60 degrees, thus his casting arc in this video is about 87 degrees if you look to stop point of the forward cast. Or about 62 to 72 degrees if you only measure between the end of the back cast and the position he raises the rod to quickly at the end of the forward cast.

Of course I have no idea the difference in the length of the line being cast in the two videos, or if the line is the same length or even if he is using the same rod in both videos or a different rod with different flex in the two videos. And of course Tenkara no oni can cast lines in a way that other people can not.

So quite a bit of support for TJ's 12:45 angle during the back cast shown in the second video. And evidence for going a bit past 12 in both videos. Being an engineering type tracing the angles is an appealing thing to me, you may or may not find it an interesting thing to try. :?

The easiest Tenkara no oni video to see the angle at the end of the back cast and forward cast is this one. It is a closer view and the butt end of the rod is clearly visible. He is casting in a parking lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcGpsadqTO8&feature=plcp

I think Tenkara no oni is the master of long line casting. It's not shown in any of the above videos but I have noticed in some of his videos he appears to have a bit of an oval movement of the rod tip in some of his cast. Which is not the topic of this thread. But you can see that during some parts of this 6 minutes video. I think the use of a telephoto lens compressed the depth of field and in some shots the river looks like it is only ten feet across but my bet is that is is 30 to 40 ft across. The description says he is casting an 8 m #2.5 line. 8 m 26.3 ft, line. Plus tippet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N05apvLcjs

Generally I have found 18 or 19 foot line best for most of the places I fish. I have found that casting a 24 to 28 ft line has mostly been useful as a casting training tool. I think I can cast an 18 ft line better after an hour trying to cast a longer line. Mostly I have not fished places where the longer line was useful.

As always I think different rod flex and different line lengths and weights all require something a little different. And individual body mechanics just make us all cast a little differently. At least that's the way it seems to me.

;)
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Re: Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Postby TJ @ Tenkara USA » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:33 pm

dwalker, great info.

Looking back and how I cast I see my index finger on top of the rod is ar 12 but the rod has the angle along with wrist flick and I go back to that 12:45.

So my brain says 12 noon since my index finger is pointing straight up but in reality it is 12:45.

I will stick with this for now as it works for me and I like that is what I see in Tenkara no Oni vids.

I want to keep my casts consistent between rods and lines I use. I am not using anything other than 3.5# or 4.5# Level Lines and once in a while our Gen 3 Traditional Line so should work.

Seems that whatever rod I use so far I can cast the 18' line using this stroke so that is cool.

There is so much to the dynamics to a cast but in the end do what it takes to catch fish. 8-)

For me though I will try to stick to a 10ish to 12ish stroke no mater what setup I have and see how it goes.

Now lets see some side vids from the rest of you lot. ;)

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Re: Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Postby scorpion1971 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:02 pm

I mainly use long lines to fish retention ponds. Just like Western Fly Casting there are allot of variables to cast a long line. Line weight and speed seem to play the most important role. A little heavier line, the easier to cast. The Lighter the line, the harder it is to cast and get line speed. The slower the line speed the longer the pause between back and forward cast.

I have also found furled lines to be the best long lines for Tenkara. This may be do to being slightly heavier than level Line. I have also found the limper the line the hard to cast and the stiffer the easier. I believe the stiffer lines transfer the energy of the cast better and not much energy is lost.

The Video I love the best in regards to long line casting is by by Tenkara no Oni. He cast the same line with different speeds, angles, and even pauses.
http://youtu.be/zTld2_yAHO4
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Re: Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Postby dwalker » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:47 pm

From the fwiw dept. A bit off the topic of casting stroke and more toward the choice of line length and line size.

In Oct I read the web page about Tenkara no oni's line choice recommendations.

http://www.oni-tenkara.com/english/tool/oniline.html

And submitted the following questions:

I am confused about what weight of level line you use and when to choose one weight of line over another weight. The casting line page says that you use Sansui #4, or Zeal or Sunline buttobi line in #3.5.

However, the same casting line page says you use #1.5 line for small streams. #2.0 line for mid-sized streams. And #2.5 line for large streams.

Which is correct? #3.5 or #4.0 line? Or # 1.5, 2.0, 2.5 line?

Also I thought you would use lighter line when the line is longer . That would make it easier to hold the line off the water. And use heavier line when the line is shorter, that would give the line additional mass.

But you use heavier line when the line is longer. The opposite of what I expected. For example you list for small streams #1.5 line of 3.0 - 4.0 m. For large streams #2.5 line of 5.0 - 8.0 m. This is opposite from what I expected. A shorter line has less mass than a longer line. Therefore I expected when using a shorter line you would also have to use a heavier line to get enough mass in the line to be able to cast the fly/kebari.
Thank you,


I received this reply:

"Hello David,
Thank you first for submitting your question. We apologize for taking so long to get back with the answer.

The way level line size is presented on the site is contradicting and confusing, and we’ll work on explaining the matter better in the near future.

To answer your question first, the advantage of using level line is in its light weight, so you have no “drag” (Kebari coming back towards you with the weight of the line). Longer lines are more difficult to cast, so having more weight on the line will make it easier.

With a shorter rig, you can cast with less effort and allows you to take full advantage of the “light weight”, so you can drop your line size.

We do recommend that when you first get started with Tenkara, you should start with #3.5~#4 level lines and stick with it for at least a year.

Try it in different length and find the best “balance” with your rod, then which is another important factor in finding the “right level line size”.

Once you can cast freely and accurately with the line, you can either extend it by a meter, or drop by one size to see if you can still cast the same way.

In Masami’s case, he can cast a 10 meter #1.5 level line. Students that have been with him for over 10 years have tried this, but we have concluded that Masami has freak abilities that cannot be imitated.
He does resort to #3 and heavier lines though, under windy conditions. You need the mass and weight to fight the wind.

A great place to work on your casting and trying out different lines or sizes is at a swimming pool or a quiet pond. Most people get too anxious to fish on a river and when you know that there’s no fish to be caught, you will be able to focus better and observe how each line works, how fast the line comes back towards your rod, whether the line is making a nice loop on the end… etc. You do not need any force. Exhale, relax and “toss” the line upwards instead of a back cast, and let rod’s flexibility cast your line for you.

Thank you again for your question David. If this answer did not clarify your question, please feel free to contact us again. It was truly a joy for us to hear from you!
Sincerely,
Masami & The Team Oni"

Hmmm. I doubt I have enough years left to learn to cast a 10 m ( 32 ft) , #1.5 line. :shock:

I think the answer is that impatience is the enemy and patience and practice is your friend in learning to cast.

( the oni-tenkara web page states that in the future they may start to post the submitted questions and answers )

:)
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Re: Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Postby John @ Tenkara USA » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:46 pm

dwalker, Thank you for posting that reply. Someone else mentioned Tenkara no oni's oval casting stroke and it seems to help me with the long lines, as well. I'll try to get a video of myself casting and encourage everyone else to do the same. It should give this discussion even more teeth. Great thread, TJ.
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Re: Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Postby scorpion1971 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:30 pm

To answer your question first, the advantage of using level line is in its light weight, so you have no “drag” (Kebari coming back towards you with the weight of the line). Longer lines are more difficult to cast, so having more weight on the line will make it easier.


I have found this to be true. Lighter and limper long lines are a real pain to cast. Up the weight and it gets a little easier. The longest line I have cast is a 27' furled line with 5 ft of tippet. Also the less wind resistant the fly the easier.
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Re: Should Casting Stroke change when casting longer lines?

Postby tsegelke » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:27 pm

I have spent a lot of practice to be able to cast long lines to spooky fish this fall. I have found that when I regressed back to old western style casting habits. The leader tended to land first, the tippet piled up shortly past the leader and the fish didn't take the fly. This happened from 15' to 25'.

To cast the long line, for me it became more important to not revert to western or spey type methods.

I found it more important to be sure than I got the line moving before starting the casting stroke (I often mistook this for lengthening my casting stroke). If the line was still still laid out and on top of the water, I could start my casting stroke almost right off. The longer the line, the more attention needs to be put into getting the fly toward the top, and the line taught, to be able to start the casting stroke.

The other difference I found was that the longer the line slower the pace between the backward pull, and forward pull, of the casting stroke. A lot of western fly demos for long casting would say that they put in a drift in their back cast. Flex the rod back to get the fly to start, drift their arm behind them allowing the line to extend behind them, then start the forward cast, using the extra distance of arm travel to time the flex of the rod to forward cast motion, and/or include the hauls.

My experience is that Tenkara Casting truly is more in the wrist, and motion from above the elbow. The longer the line, the more one might think of a pause between the forward and back casting stroke. Maybe even a faster pace, or slower cast for longer line. I still find my best casting is done when stoping my back cast at twelve instead of two.

For me this is much more efficient, allowing me cast more often to the precise spots I am fishing, and to fish all day. When Western fishing, I cast to allow my fly to drift over the most water for the longest possible time, figuring the more fish that could see the fly the more likely one would take it. Tenkara casting is more precise, with better drift control. Allowing me to put the fly in the best spot, with the best drift, to get my target to take my fly. The light, versatile, efficient gear & efficient casting stroke allows me to focus on every target spot on the river.

Just my two cents.
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