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Hook Set....How Hard?

Re: Hook Set....How Hard?

Postby cbuhl » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:28 am

This is a lot of great info, thanks guys. I believe all the hooks I've been using were straight like the one on the right. Maybe that would make the difference for me.

Chris, the size of the fish makes sense, especially since the fish that I landed before were all much larger browns and a couple slighlty larger brookies. The ones I had on the hook lately felt smaller.

With regards to the actual set, are we talking about just a lift of the rod tip or an actual snap of the wrist? I don't want to fling one of these little guys across the forest.

Chuck
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Re: Hook Set....How Hard?

Postby John @ Tenkara USA » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:14 pm

I had to tone down my hookset because I was sending some little guys flying. Chris told me to use a gentle but quick lift of the rod. One thing I'd like to add is that it can also be important to get the bend of the rod into play quickly on the hookset. I lost some fish early on because I basically was reaching with the rod pointed at the fish when they took. I couldn't get the wonderful shock absorbing qualities of the rod into play. Once the butt of the rod is pointed at the fish it's much harder to loose them so I like to try and do this qickly in the fight but not with enough power to send them flying like Chris saw me do on Hylite. :) I think this is especially important if you're expecting larger fish.
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Re: Hook Set....How Hard?

Postby jayfisher » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:54 pm

I think one of the (heretofore unmentioned) secrets behind the success of the killer bug is that the loose fibers of the yarn act like velcro loops and the teeth trout have on their tongue act like velcro hooks. I think a killer bug is harder for them to spit out. I think I once read that Gary LaFontaine felt the same way about his deep sparkle pupa but was a bit embarrassed by it and didn't really want to talk about it.


Perhaps this is why flies that are chewed up by fish with fibers sticking out seem to become more effective. Now I'm starting to fantasize about making a fly using velcro loop tape. :) Until then, I guess killer bugs will have to do.

I've had the experience that Anthony and Chris describe. I've had the experience of catching rainbows deep nymphing because with the right lighting conditions and polaroid glasses I could see them taking my fly. Otherwise if I had only watched my line, I would have never known anything happened.

All this indicates to me how challenging nymphing can be and why different techniques have developed to try to meet these challenges.

-Jack
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Re: Hook Set....How Hard?

Postby Eddie » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:20 pm

Chris, sorry to respond so late.

That hook is the Super Yamame #7.5 by Owner Co., Ltd.for the main stream fishing.
http://www.owner.co.jp/product/detail.php?no=13105

This hook is half-barbed and twisted. The twisted hook is not my taste, because the direction of the point is a bit deflected from the eye. Anyway, this is my most favorite hook at the moment.
twisted.jpg
twisted.jpg (15.51 KiB) Viewed 8674 times
Owner Super Yamame.jpg
Chris, sorry to respond so late.
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Re: Hook Set....How Hard?

Postby Karl Klavon » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:46 pm

On the barbed vs barbless hook debate, what is to following has nothing to do with hooking lethality studies but every thing to do with the physics of hook penetration. If you will go back to my post under the Tenkara Flies section, titled Adams vs Royal Coachman vs Thorax Dun vs The Real Thing Pics, click Section 11 after the page comes up, and you can see the picture of the hooks the following statements refer to:

Here I should give a brief addition of information about hooks. In #1 you see a common dry fly hook as it comes from the box. At #2 you see what the same hook looks like after hitting a rock on the back-cast, being removed from a snag or a hard jawed fish. The reason a hook will break at the juncture of the barb is rather simple. It is weaker there. Often the barb does not get pushed clear thru the jaw of the fish and the torque generated can break the hook at that point.

It does require nearly twice the thrust to impale a trout with a barbed hook as a barbless, nevertheless, many still continue in the mistaken notion they must have the barb to retain the trout. The hook in #3 is the most worthless variation ever developed. Many tests were performed and it had the singular distinction to fail each. It is rather, fishless; than barbless. The wretched thing turns nearly ninety degrees to the point when pressure is applied to the eye. It is to be avoided at all costs.

Of course the hook at #4 is one produced with no barb. Truly a barbless hook. This hook will require much less effort to properly penetrate to the bend as a hook should. Once full hold is established to the bend of the hook, losing a trout is a moot point.

I have found the combination of using a true barbless hook and a thorax tied fly allows me to use at least one size lighter tippet. This feature alone gives my flies a better presentation, more drag free float and therefore entices more takes. I hope the series has given you pause for thought, some degree if interest in perusing the thorax style of tie and will eventually produce more and more satisfying takes for you on the stream.

Next time, the end. J. Castwell

In setting the hook into fish you can see taking the fly, set the hook when you see the white flash as the fish opens its mouth to suck in the fly. Given your reaction time lag between seeing the fish take a fly in its mouth and your setting the hook, the fish will already have ejected the fly before you can move the fly to set the hook most of the time. Setting when you see the white flash will allow you to set the hook into the fish while it still has the fly in its mouth.

In the beginning I also had trouble in hooking fish on my 12 foot Iwana rod, probably due to the much softer rod tip action than than I was used to using. Eventually, however, the problem went away, seemingly all on its own.

Take your Tenkara rod out and hold it at the angle where you usually hold it when you set the hook on a fish. Raise the rod as if setting the hook while observing the rod's tip sections in motion. What does the tip of the rod do when the rod is briskly raised?

For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. If you raise the rod briskly, the tip moves in the opposite direction - downward - first, giving the fish slack at the beginning of the strike. It takes a lot of upward movement of the rod to over come the rod tip's inertia and tendency to move in a downward direction before the rod comes back up enough to overcome the downward movement. If you give a downward wrist flick before raising the rod, the tip will move up at the beginning of the strike in stead of later in the striking operation. It is worth giving this a try to see if it works for you. It will not be an easy thing to as old habits are very hard to change.
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Re: Hook Set....How Hard?

Postby Stan Wright » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:59 pm

:)

I seem to remember reading something about setting the hook by pushing DOWN on the rod.
If you drop the rod with a quick snap, then lift the rod... the tip of the rod springs up and sets the hook.
More research needed me thinks. :?
Why let the truth stand in the way of a good fish story.
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Re: Hook Set....How Hard?

Postby GregM » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:08 pm

@ Karl -
"If you raise the rod briskly, the tip moves in the opposite direction - downward - first, giving the fish slack at the beginning of the strike.

"If you give a downward wrist flick before raising the rod, the tip will move up..."

A light rod tip gets "left behind" on any quick movement and may appear to move down or up relative to the adjoining sections of the rod, but it cannot move in an opposite direction on its own.

"It takes a lot of upward movement of the rod to overcome the rod tip's inertia..."

The tip has almost no mass, and although it inherently has inertia, it has very little to overcome. What you have to contend with is the tip's extreme flexibility, which inhibits the transfer of force to the line/tippet/fly.


@Stan -
To forestall setting a hook to early there is the suggestion to "dip the rod to the fish and then raise for the set".
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Re: Hook Set....How Hard?

Postby CM_Stewart » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:41 am

GregM wrote: A light rod tip gets "left behind" on any quick movement and may appear to move down or up relative to the adjoining sections of the rod, but it cannot move in an opposite direction on its own.


It doesn't move in the opposite direction "on its own" because it is the energy from your hand movement that causes it. I do not understand the physics and properties of semirigid tubular structures well enough to explain why it happens, but the tip does in fact move in the opposite direction. If you take a rod and sight along it with the tip lined up against a distant object, and sharply move the rod to the right you will be able to see the tip move to the left of your line of sight.

However, once you add a line and slack and resistance from the water, I don't know if there is enough force in the opposite move of the rod tip to actually set a hook. I've been meaning to try it for months, but somehow the deeply ingrained knowledge to pull up on the rod takes over and I've never actually done it.

I find it much easier to just keep the line relatively tight so there is minimal slack that needs to be taken out of it. Hooksets then are largely a matter of just raising the rod a little bit to completely tighten the line. I suspect that most of the problem with hooking fish is caused by the rod being held too low, too much slack in the line and too much line in the water that has to overcome the resistance of the water.
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Re: Hook Set....How Hard?

Postby GregM » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:06 am

GregM wrote: A light rod tip gets "left behind" on any quick movement and may appear to move down or up relative to the adjoining sections of the rod, but it cannot move in an opposite direction on its own.


CM_Stewart wrote:...the tip does in fact move in the opposite direction. If you take a rod and sight along it with the tip lined up against a distant object, and sharply move the rod to the right you will be able to see the tip move to the left of your line of sight.


My apologies Karl.
I am chagrined. I observed the "opposite" movement with a 2' plastic rule. Huh?!
So much for my understanding of things in motion.

Thank you Chris for the simple validation test. Now off to review my Classical Mechanics.
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Re: Hook Set....How Hard?

Postby Karl Klavon » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:06 am

The simple waving of a rod back and forth to show its action ratio, 5:5, 6:4, 7:3, will also demonstrate how the tip will move in the opposite direction of the desired one in setting the hook. With western fly rod and reel tackle, this can be largely over come by pulling on the line with the line stripping hand to set the hook first, then raising the rod to the fish. As we all know, with Tenkara, we have no direct line to hand control. If you chose to do the wrist-snap down/arm-lift up motion for hook setting or not is 100 percent up to you. I wish you good luck in what ever you choose to do.

Another matter I didn't mention complicating the hooking of fish is the angler's casting position relative to the fish's position in the stream: Are you fishing upstream or down stream? If you are casting upstream, the flow of the current will tend to pull the fly into the the trout's mouth. And when the trout sucks the fly into its mouth, the fly will drop in as the line will be moving toward the fish with the current. Fishing down stream presents a different set of problems in that the fly's movement will be retarded by the line to some extent, especially if you are giving the fly motion in the water. From an up stream casting position, setting the hook will, literally, pull the fly out of the trout's mouth, so you need to retard your hook set motion for a little while when doing down stream drifts and presentations.

Giving the fly motion, and the motion of the fly's materials in the water, will often spur the fish into aggressively taking the fly, which makes hooking the fish a lot easier. Here, often, the fish pretty well hook them selves. But a hook set is still a good idea to insure that the hook point is driven in completely to the bend of the hook. The soft fore body of Tenkara rods puts a premium on finding the sharpest hooks you can to tie your flies on. Extra fine wire hooks will also help, as will barbless hooks, as it takes twice the force to drive a barbed hook in to the bend of the hook in the trout's mouth.
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