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where can I get blind eye hooks?

Your experiments and findings on tenkara fly-patterns and fly-tying.

Re: where can I get blind eye hooks?

Postby 257ROBT » Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:29 am

dwalker wrote:
257ROBT wrote:..... What is a good material to use to make the loop in the front? I thought I read something here in this site, but now can't remember.
Dale


If you watch the TUSA video of Amano Katsutoshi tenkara fly tying. During the video a little pop-up text says that he uses silk line that he treats with persimmon to make it stiffer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... FY-lx0yVtk

I found this Japanese web site where it shows eyeless hook kebari

http://jofu10kara.cocolog-nifty.com/blo ... -d76b.html

It also shows that he uses " bead cord periseide " natural silk.

Image

- if I google that term I get web sites mostly in the UK or Germany. However, if I just google ' bead cord ' I get results for here in the USA.

Image

Esslinger is in St Paul, Mn. But a good chance you can find the same Griffin silk bead cord at your local craft store, or Amazon. Esslinger was just where I found it quickly.

There are bead threads and bead cords. The Esslinger site explains that bead cord is braided. $2.19/ card but I didn't see how many feet of cord is on the card.

http://www.esslinger.com/griffin-silk-bead-cord.aspx

Esslinger has the bead cord in 12 different gauges. I can't make out the gauge size on the picture above. If you watch the Amano video when he holds up the card with the silk line on it I can see the # 2 printed on the bottom of the card. Perhaps that is gauge 2 cord. Esslinger list guage 2 as .45mm. Or maybe not, maybe Japan uses a different sizing system.

Amano appears to use red or vermilion color
The guy at the web site above prefers white 白いシルクコード but mentions red 朱シルクコード which, he seems to not like for some reason. The translation was too jumbled to make sense of it.

If you want a challange, you can run this web site through google translate and see if you can make sense of it. He runs a Test of the 2 colors of loop, Red vs White.
Basically he wound kebari ( shows up a bali hair in google) using red and white silk cord for the loop ( shows up a lillian pike in translate). Probably the best you will get out of it is that below the picture with the white loop, it says proven bali hair. But below the picture with the red loop kebari it says something about being 'a big fool for using vermilion'. However, red/vermilion apparently works for Amano. ;)

http://jofu10kara.cocolog-nifty.com/blo ... -10d7.html

For something much more fun do a google search with this term or the terms separately :

穂先のリリアン・シルクコード・毛鉤 ( Hosaki no Ririan shirukukōdo kebari )

穂先 , hosaki, will often translate as pike, but sometimes as ' ear tip'- thus, rather descriptive of what the loop looks like. :)
Literally ' ear tip lillian - silk cord - fly '

I get about 5 pages in google images of many eyeless hook kebari being tied. Mostly the same guys web site. At least that's what I get. Some still images shows detail of how the loop is tied onto the hook.

- ymmv - one thing I have learned lately, and not happy about it really, is that google keeps track of your previous search history and it will give you results dependent on that search history. The result is that different people doing a google search using the same term will get different results. So search with that term, open a few web sites of interest, then repeat the search. You may get more related results the 2nd or 3d time searching. Or better yet, do a google search for one of the 3 terms
穂先のリリアン・シルクコード・毛鉤 , then repeat the search using all three or just 2 of the terms. The different search results is rather amazing. :shock: :?
Works with English words too. :)

How the 'ear loop' is tied on

http://jofu10kara.cocolog-nifty.com/blo ... index.html

Oh along the way I found these interesting terms for the other lillian . The lillian at the tip of the pole.
:)

穂先のリリアン竿 , Hosaki no Ririan sao , ear loop lillian pole
穂先のリリアン竿の修理 , Hosaki no Ririan sao no shūri , ear loop lillian repair

turns up some interesting images.

fwiw,

D


Thanks for the write up. That answers everything I wanted to know, plus alot more! I remember seeing the video of Amano Katsutoshi tying, but for the life of me couldn't remember where I saw it. I am going to run to the local bead shop and do a little searching around today. I am going to look at a gauge 1 chord as well, just because we are tying a touch smaller flies. It is interesting to note the use of red vs white. One thing I have noticed is that white was one of my two best kebari colors last year. I have tried red kebari in the past and couldn't buy a bite on them, yet I used to fish a red body dry fly and did amazingly well :? I still can't figure that one out.

A side note, I really like the looks of the silver pheasant feathers. I am picking up a few odd n ends from a place that has skins. I may just have to get one.

Dale
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Re: where can I get blind eye hooks?

Postby dwalker » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:38 am

257ROBT wrote: One thing I have noticed is that white was one of my two best kebari colors last year. I have tried red kebari in the past and couldn't buy a bite on them, yet I used to fish a red body dry fly and did amazingly well :? I still can't figure that one out.
A side note, I really like the looks of the silver pheasant feathers. I am picking up a few odd n ends from a place that has skins. I may just have to get one.
Dale


Lets us know what kind of bead cord you find. I guess the size of town you live near will affect the variety of choice you will find at the local craft store.

Color choice of kebari seems to be an odd thing. Opinions vary and sometimes hotly defended. Some people like red, others white. I found one web site where the guy said the best colors to use is black followed by dark brown, dark blue/navy , deep purple or turmeric. Everyone has their favorites. Some folks want to pick a color similar to a natural bug. Others say a color that stands out works best. I think Karl Klavon called that the 'stranger theory' in another thread.

Anyway, after looking around a little bit more I found that the guy at the previously posted web site had all his kebari separated under one heading - kebari & tying ( 毛 バリ & タイイング ).

You can find other examples of how he ties on the silk cord loop and other kebari ideas there too.

http://jofu10kara.cocolog-nifty.com/blo ... index.html
テンカラはかんたんでたのし
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Re: where can I get blind eye hooks?

Postby 257ROBT » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:54 am

Just got back from the store I had in mind. They had the right brand of bead chord, just not the right size. Talk about terrible customer service; I asked if they could order what I was looking for and in no way shape or form would they do it. I guess I won't be buying anything from them anymore! I am going to have to order some now, I guess. A friend of ours is into beading and such and has all the catalogs to look at.

Color is a weird thing alright. I used white in the stained trout streams I fish in central WI.

On a side note and maybe a subject all on its own; iis it just me or do the Tenkara anglers in Japan seem to fish flies that are bigger than what we would typical fish in the states?

I just watched the Amano video again. I find it interesting that he finishes off the fly at the back of the hook and not behind the hackle.

Dale
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Re: where can I get blind eye hooks?

Postby dwalker » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:26 pm

257ROBT wrote:Just got back from the store ..... They had ... bead chord, just not the right size. ......Dale

I stopped at Micheal's craft store out of curiosity. They had 2 colors of silk bead cord. Black and green. No gauge size listed. But the size they had would probably work if I had eyeless hooks and wanted to give it a go. $5 for 10 ft.

257ROBT wrote:J.....is it just me or do the Tenkara anglers in Japan seem to fish flies that are bigger than what we would typical fish in the states?
Dale


That is true according to the Chris Stewart experience in Japan. See his post on June 20. Read his post and those after that date.

http://tenkarausa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11443&sid=559cfc4ad6ef83732f3efe1bd0f6b761#p11443

A picture from that thread comparing his size 14 to Tenkara no oni's size 2 kebari

Image

I tied some size 2 kebari and caught fish with them. Chris also sent me a size to when I ordered some flies from him. Sorry to say I haven't fished with it yet. I didn't mind loosing one of my crudely tied flies to the trees or to brush on the other side of the stream. To deep to wade across to retrieve a caught fly. I do plan to use the fly he sent me when I next fish a stream that is a bit more open and I have a better chance to catch more than one fish with it or more than just a tree branch. ;)

257ROBT wrote:...I just watched the Amano video again. I find it interesting that he finishes off the fly at the back of the hook and not behind the hackle.
Dale


That is probably easier to do when you use the 'finger vise'. I am very much a beginner at tying flies and I sometime remove the hook from the vise and tie it off behind the hackle.

Andrea in northern Italy who also ties flies using his ' finger vise ' also ties off his flies behind the hackle in a similar manner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl-QVp6lrhk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
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Re: where can I get blind eye hooks?

Postby 257ROBT » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:12 am

I just talked a someone last night was is into beading and such. Lucky for me they are planing an order next week for supplies and where they order from has Periseide in the right size and quite a few colors. White and red are on the list for sure. I'll be curious to see what other colors they offer.

I find it interesting that when you see the fly boxes of the Tenkara fishers from Japan many appear to fish flies larger than what we would here. I have fished a size 2 kebari (Godzilla kebari ) and was pleased with the results. Too bad it was the last day of inland trout season in WI. The only hard part of fishing them was trying to cast them.

Dale
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Re: where can I get blind eye hooks?

Postby 257ROBT » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:38 am

By gosh, you can tie on eyeless hooks. I stopped by a craft store that is literary about a minute from my house. I figured it was an unlikely place for silk chord. Well, they had it in size 2/.45mm. (Not to mention I found some really cool looking/sparkly thread to try for bodies) The company brand is Beadalon and the color is white. I had time to tie one last night. When you tie in the loop, tie it in to the side as is shown in these pics.

http://jofu10kara.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/cat33869160/index.html

I tied mine in on top and the loop wanted to spin to the opposite side of the hook. I believe that if you tie it in on the side, as shown, the loop will "right" itself to the top of the hook where you want it. If I can figure out pics, I'll post one today.

Dale
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Re: where can I get blind eye hooks?

Postby jayfisher » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:31 am

Loops on Yoshikazu Fujioka blind eye flies:

Several days ago I had the chance to inspect a large selection of several dozen different flies tied by Yoshikazu Fujioka shown to me by Jeff Gottfried. They were beautiful. Fujiokasan's flies that were tied on blind eye hooks had synthetic loops, probably made from tippet material around 2x thickness. I couldn't tell whether the material was mono (nylon), copolymer, or fluorocarbon. The loops were fairly large in size, perhaps one to two times the length of the fly body.

-Jack
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Re: where can I get blind eye hooks?

Postby dwalker » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:09 pm

jayfisher wrote:Loops on Yoshikazu Fujioka blind eye flies:
...They were beautiful. Fujiokasan's flies that were tied on blind eye hooks had synthetic loops, probably made from tippet material around 2x thickness. I couldn't tell whether the material was mono (nylon), copolymer, or fluorocarbon. The loops were fairly large in size, perhaps one to two times the length of the fly body.
-Jack


It is interesting comparing your description of Yoshikazu Fujioka flies from personal inspection to the description of tying a sakasa kebari on his web page. Of course there is no rule saying one must always use the same type of line to tie a loop or eye on blind eye/eyeless/no eye hooks. Many different materials will probably be suitable.

Was there any particular color of the eye loops on the Fujioka flies you saw? Clear, pink, green, or some other color?

Here is the description of the loop from his web page.

" Tying of Reversed Hackle Fly "Sakasa-Kebari"
1. Use a size 8 Japanese bait hook (10-12 TMC 206BL, similar short shank wide gap hook), form a 2mm (1/12 in.) eye loop by whipping braided backing line to the shank and coat with cement. "

http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/amago/b-streams/ ... kara2.html

However, I don't know how accurate that translation is from Japanese. I couldn't get the term "braided backing line" to translate from the same web page written in Japanese.

http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/amago/b-streams/ ... ra2-2.html

It will be interesting to read about the experience people have fishing with the eyeless hook flies made by those who give them a try. Not sure I understand why the Japanese see an advantage to using a line loop eye. It appears to be something more than no eye hooks being more available since I sometimes find Japanese web sites where they tie kebari on hooks that have eyes, yet they prefer to tie on a line loop eye. Maybe the no eye hooks are more available there because that is what they prefer. The experience of those who give them a try may provide some insight. :)
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Re: where can I get blind eye hooks?

Postby jayfisher » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:16 pm

Was there any particular color of the eye loops on the Fujioka flies you saw? Clear, pink, green, or some other color?


Yoshikazu Fujioka's eye loops. Attached below is a detail from a photo I took:
FujiokaKebariDetail3525.jpg

The eye loops were clear and looked like mono (but of course could also have been fluoro). You can make out the mostly rounded eye loops roughly the size of the fly. (I wish that the lighting and focus were better, but I was making the photo under dim conditions with a wide open lens and slow shutter speed.)

His western style flies were tied with conventional eyed hooks. It seems that mostly his older traditional style kebari were tied with eye loops. It seems that using eye loops might be a matter of taste and tradition for some tying traditional patterns. Of course I'm just guessing about this. Daniel and Chris might have more definitive information about why loops on eyeless hooks are sometimes preferred.

About eyeless vs eyed hooks in the West:
In the West, some tie some classic old patterns, like atlantic salmon flies, with loops on eyeless hooks. My understanding of history is that eyed hooks didn't start to become popular until around 1880. The reason was that the quality of the hook steel was still poor enough that many fishermen distrusted the metal eyes and would rather attach their lines to eyeless hooks.

-Jack
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Re: where can I get blind eye hooks?

Postby CM_Stewart » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:51 am

The yoshidakebari blog has a step by step for an Akiyama-style fly on an eyeless hook. He used size 4 nylon fishing line (16# test).


http://yoshidakebari.jugem.jp/?eid=707

There seems to be as much individuality in tying the eyes on eyeless hooks as there is in tying the flies themselves. Ten colors.
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